Plotting How To Get Plot Discussion

[lizvogel]

Patricia Wrede has a post up about character goals, and specifically story-level goals vs. scene-level goals and how each might be helpful (or not) for the writer at various stages.

Although it's a character-oriented post, and I've ranted many times about how I get character stuff when I ask for help with plot, I think this might actually be useful in my ongoing quest for tips on How To Do Plot. Because it seems like people usually want to talk about plot as it pertains to story-level goals, and what I get stuck on is plot as it pertains to scene-level goals. I'm hoping that pointing them toward this might clarify what it is I'm looking for.

So, test drive: If I were to show you that link and then ask you how to Do Plot, what kinds of things would you be inclined to tell me?

Comments

[duskpeterson]

Well, first I'd ask you whether I'd shown you this yet:

https://prajeralmanac.blogspot.com/2013/10/david-gerrold-on-creating-tightly.html

Remind me again what problem is arising with your plotting? I can tell you *backwards* what my scenes achieve plotwise, once I've written them in my head, so maybe I can help in that way.

[lizvogel]

What I'm looking for is a step (at least) before what Gerrold's talking about. If I were going to use his method, I'd first have to come up with things to put on the cards. That's the part that tends to be a brick wall for me (in much the same way that description is for you, IIRC).

In fact, some of his examples elide over the very issue I struggle with. "Kirk finds fuzzies in ship's stores" -- yes, but how? What on earth makes the Captain of a starship go and look in the stores cupboards? (I mean, I know how it happens in the actual episode; I can very nearly recite "Tribbles" from memory. But if I were trying to write that story myself, that's exactly the sort of thing I'd hang up on.)

I think a lot of people discuss scenes "backwards" when talking about plot, which is probably why it frustrates me so much -- and I suspect it's another example of me thinking about story differently than, apparently, the rest of the universe. I can usually tell *before* I've written it what a scene needs to achieve, what it needs to do in terms of pacing, structure, and character, even a sort of general kinesthetic "feel" for what kind of thing needs to go there. It's getting the thing itself -- what actually happens -- that's my sticking point.

[duskpeterson]

Ah, that's the problem of my using a quote from the middle of a book. You might enjoy reading the book itself ("The Trouble with Tribbles"), which tells how David Gerrold developed the script, from Day One. He started with a two-page premise, which he sold, and then he went through multiple drafts, each more developed than the last.

"I can usually tell before I've written it what a scene needs to achieve, what it needs to do in terms of pacing, structure, and character, even a sort of general kinesthetic "feel" for what kind of thing needs to go there. It's getting the thing itself -- what actually happens -- that's my sticking point."

Can you give me an example, one where the missing element was eventually found? I'm still trying to envision what the missing element is.

[lizvogel]

See, that's half my problem; I can't seem to explain what it is that I'm looking for, even though to me of course it's the most obvious thing in the world. I'll try to come up with a detailed example.

[duskpeterson]

Hmm. Do you know Peter Pan, the book or the film? There's a scene early on where Peter meets Wendy. The main goals of that scene are for us to (1) learn about Peter Pan, Never-Never Land, and Tinkerbell, (2) establish how Peter Pan and Wendy are going to interact, and (3) have Peter lure Wendy to Never-Never Land. Barrie accomplishes these goals through dialogue and a flying scene.

Is that the point where you'd get stuck? Trying to figure out what dialogue and action to use to reach the goal? Or is the missing element something else?

[lizvogel]

That's at least in the vicinity of what I'm talking about. Dialogue's usually not the problem -- I often have a scene specifically so characters can have a certain conversation -- but what are the actions? What happens?

To put it another way: A novel starts at A and ends at Z. (I'm talking strictly progression of events here; forget theme and character and all that for now.) I get A-E no problem, struggle a bit with F, if I'm lucky F kicks off G-I, J-M I can more or less work out, and I know X-Z, but how the hell do I get from N to W???

This isn't the greatest example, but it's recent so I remember it: I've got a work-not-really-in-progress that's a murder mystery. The main character gets involved when a kitten covered in what turns out to be human blood turns up at the shelter where she volunteers. Using the kitten's fancy collar, she traces the owner, who turns out to have been murdered.

And there the story stops dead (so to speak). She's an amateur, so the cops aren't going to tell her anything. She has no particular reason to investigate on her own or be involved in any way, and also (and here's the important part for me) no further clues on which to follow up. There's literally nothing else for her to do here.

So I need an event/action/Thing that will give her a lead to follow. It needs to be something that gives her a reason to involve herself, it needs to not be such a big thing that she'd hand it over to the cops instead of pursuing it herself, and it needs to be something that a private citizen can get somewhere with. Feel-wise, it does not involve the cat.

The solution (and I'm not thrilled with this, but I've been stuck at this point for several years, so I'll take what I can get) is that somebody follows her when she leaves the crime scene at the dead guy's apartment. She gets the license plate, and she currently has a temp job that gives her (unauthorized) access to the DMV database, so she can find out who owns the car. And then she can do something with that.

I stole this "solution" wholesale from an episode of The Rockford Files, and I don't love it because it depends on the bad guys doing something stupid. (If they'd left her alone, she'd never have gotten involved.) Also, I've no idea who the guys in the car are (except that they feel like minions for someone higher up the food chain) or why they're following her (obviously they or their boss want something that they didn't get from killing the cat-owner, but I've no clue what), so I'm really just pushing the what-happens problem a few steps further down the road. But it'll get me to the end of my headlights' reach, and then I get to do this all over again. *headdesk*

[duskpeterson]

Oh, I just had another thought. Do you think it might help if I sent you an annotated version of one of my introductory scenes, explaining how I built it? Because, whereas you start a scene with A (goal), B (pacing), C (structure), D (character), and F ("the feel") - with E being the missing element - I may start my first scene with as little as A (main characters) and B (conflict). I have to build practically everything from scratch when I start writing that first scene. So somewhere in my building of the scene must be your missing element.

[lizvogel]

I don't really "start" with goal/pacing/structure/character/feel, it's just that all those things tend to come to me for free. What I really start with is more like "Okay, and the next thing that needs to happen is... uh...." /*cue dial tone*/

I suspect that what I'm looking for is so basic that everyone assumes it must be more complex, higher-level than it is. Really, seriously, my story ideas look like this:

Joe is out of milk. Joe goes to the store. The store is out of milk, so Joe goes to a different store. As Joe is trying to find the milk at the unfamiliar store, [Thing happens] and Joe is now involved in a plot to overthrow the Broccoli Growers Association of America. He thwarts the plot by [Thing], [Thing], and [Thing], and finally by recovering the chairman's pinky ring (which he knows about because of [Thing]).

What the bleep are the Things? I got nothing.

My process is weird enough that I tend to bounce off other people's processes pretty hard, but I'd be happy to take a look at your scene if it would entertain you to annotate it.

[duskpeterson]

"I've got a work-not-really-in-progress that's a murder mystery."

Ouch. I've only done a proper mystery once, precisely because of this problem of having to start from the end and work one's way backwards. I mean, I usually *do* figure out the end of the story before I've reached there, and then once I know, I can go back and add a bit of foreshadow if needed. (Or my Muse can take early passages that had no deep meaning when I wrote them originally, and turn them into foreshadows. He does that quite a lot; it saves me a ton of work.) But I'm sure mystery writers must be far better organized than I am.

"Joe is out of milk. Joe goes to the store. The store is out of milk, so Joe goes to a different store. As Joe is trying to find the milk at the unfamiliar store, [Thing happens] and Joe is now involved in a plot to overthrow the Broccoli Growers Association of America. He thwarts the plot by [Thing], [Thing], and [Thing], and finally by recovering the chairman's pinky ring (which he knows about because of [Thing])."

You have just described my average outline.

(*Grubs through my notes for an example.*)

Okay, here is a 1996 outline of a Three Lands novel I'm issuing next year. (Major spoilers, obviously.) At that time, I thought the novel would have twenty chapters and be divided into three parts. The outline represents the scenes I'd written in my head or had figured out were going to happen. In some cases (for example, "Background"), I knew almost exactly what happened in the scene, because I'd written the scene in my head or had typed it up. But in other cases, I didn't have a clue. "The priests' discussion" meant I had *absolutely no idea* what was going to happen in that scene, except that I needed the priests to mention one bit of information that would be important for the protagonist to know later.

o--o--o

I. Afternoon

1. Background
2. Death
3. Shipboard conversation/Barbarian sailor
4. Shipwreck/Capture by the Lieutenant
5. Talk with the Commander/Appointment
6. Talk with the honorary sublieutenant
7. Revelation/Decision to stay

II. Dusk

8. Inviting the priests/The priests' discussion
9. Talk with L on patrol/L arriving at Co's tent/Talk about Blue Tent
10. Dishonorable dismissal/Talk with Co
11. Talk with Co/Visit to Blue Tent/Sleep
12. Talk with Co/Offering the cup
13. Dolan's offer
14. Aftermath
15. L's injury and D's vow/Apology
16. Honor brooch/Acceptance of cup

III. Night

17. Visit to Peaktop/Talk before attack on the palace
18. Destruction of the palace/Burying the memoir
19. Arrest/Decision to question
20. Release/Final destruction

o--o--o

Below is the 2008 version of the outline. By then, the novel had six parts. Again, some of these scenes were clear in my head, while others were just fuzzy bits of hopefulness. I've included the Xs, so that you can see which scenes had been typed up, though some of the untyped ones were drafted in my head. Two Xs meant the scene was all typed up; one X meant it was partially typed up.

o--o--o

==Koretia

xx Remus's house
x Market
xx Tavern
Remus's death

==Sea of Storms/Marcadia, near the coast

Shipboard conversation; barbarian captain
Shipwreck
xx Arrival in Marcadia
xx Capture by the Lieutenant
x Talk with the Commander
xx Talk with the Captain and the Lieutenant
x Talk with the sublieutenant
Revelation of the Captain's attraction to Dolan
Decision to stay

==Marcadia - capital

Lieutenant's honor brooch; dishonorable dismissal
x Talk with the Captain and the Commander
Talk with Arpeshians and barbarian
Talk with Commander at the baths
x Inviting the priests
The priests' discussion

==Arpesh, next to the border with the Central Provinces

x Talk with the Lieutenant on patrol
The Lieutenant arriving at the Commander's hut
The Lieutenant arriving back at tent
x Talk with Captain about the Lieutenant
x Imminent attack
Visit to the Blue Tent
Sleep
Talk with Captain
Offering the cup
Talk with Captain

IV. Central Provinces - Lone Bay

x Talk with Captain
xx Dolan's offer
xx The tale of imprisonment
xx Aftermath
Fight with soldiers; talk with the Captain and the Lieutenant
Talk with the Commander the next day

V. Central Provinces - Border with the mountains

x The Lieutenant's injury; Dolan's vow
Apology from the other soldiers
Dolan awarded honor brooch
Acceptance of cup

VI. Southern Emor - Peaktop

Visit to conquered town
Visit to the capital
xx Discussion of battle plans

xx VII. Southern Emor - the Chara's Palace

xx Discussion with the Commander, the Lieutenant, the Captain; murder of the Chara; destruction of the palace
xx Reading Andrew's memoir; burying the memoir; talk afterwards; discovery that they're being hunted
xx Arrest; decision to question
xx Questioning and release
xx Final destruction

o--o--o

Basically, I was still trying to work out the middle portion of the novel. The final version of the novel ended up having thirty-nine chapters divided into eight parts. (All I can say is, Thank goodness for e-books and self-publishing. I would have been a nightmare to any editor at a traditional publisher.)

"I get A-E no problem, struggle a bit with F, if I'm lucky F kicks off G-I, J-M I can more or less work out, and I know X-Z, but how the hell do I get from N to W???"

It sounds as though you and I plot novels in the same way! Fortunately, I have a well-practiced Muse by now, so it usually doesn't take him long to come up with the answers. But I remember, when I was writing "Law of Vengeance" in 1995, having to sit down and make flow charts in order to figure out how to resolve the seemingly unsolvable problem I'd landed the ruler with: the fact that he couldn't beget an heir. So I can certainly empathize with your struggles.

That being the case, maybe an annotated draft of one of my scenes will indeed help you in working out your issue of plotting scenes. I'll send it to you in a few days, once I've put it together.

[lizvogel]

You lost me at "outline". ;-)

Maybe I'm just tripping over differences in process. I don't outline. I'll often make some notes, mainly so that I don't forget key points while a story is percolating in the back-brain until it's ready to write, but never anything so organized as an outline. Usually the "notes" are at least partly the actual words I'll use in the text.

Because that's how I get story ideas: as words. I get the literal actual words I will use in the text first, not last. If I'm lucky (and I usually am), the words come with enough bits of ideas attached that I know what they're for, but even then, I get the development of the ideas as words, not as abstract ideas that I then need to figure out how to describe.

So to take this morning's example, I don't think I should contrast how physically fit one character is compared to the other. Hmm, let's see, I could have him watching her stretch, and being surprised she can get into those positions. What I think is watched her put herself through the most amazing set of contortions. He hadn't known the human body could even get into some of those positions. His certainly couldn't. And those are the words that go into the story, usually unchanged.

The words do (usually) come with concepts attached, but the concepts are a rider, not the source. For example, the above tells me that the characters share a (motel?) room before the one in which they sleep together, because that's not the physical activity he's recovering from. ;-) Which comes more or less concurrently with:

"You want first crack at the shower?"
He started to swing his leg out of bed, and it promptly cramped. "You go ahead." He could collapse on the floor in a quivering lump without her observation.


"I've only done a proper mystery once, precisely because of this problem of having to start from the end and work one's way backwards."

Who said anything about working backwards? I'm making it up as I go along, and hoping it all ties up properly at the end -- just like I do with any other story. Which may explain why I'm having so damn much trouble; proper mystery writers doubtless are much more organized. ;-) But it's the only way I can address myself to a story, so there we are.

And really, the problem I'm having is the same problem I have with any story. A mystery makes it more obvious, because mysteries are so very plot-oriented, but I run into the same wall with any genre. (Arguably, all stories have some element of mystery, because there's always a puzzle to be solved or a question to be answered.) There's still "character must do a Thing to get from P to Q. What is Thing?"

"It sounds as though you and I plot novels in the same way!"

And here I was just thinking what wildly different processes we have!

I don't plot a novel at all. I just type along as words come to me, and hopefully those words have some plot progression incorporated in them. If they don't, I flail and bang my head against the wall and pester my poor housemate with brainstorming sessions until I come up with something that lets me move ahead another few steps.

I think we may still be talking at cross-purposes, somewhat. Or else I'm missing something, which I grant is certainly possible. It seems like you're looking at what to do with the pieces? While I'm still trying to get pieces in the first place.

Let me try this: I need a better way to generate ideas for actions/events that will fit the parameters I know the story needs.

[duskpeterson]

"I'll often make some notes, mainly so that I don't forget key points while a story is percolating in the back-brain until it's ready to write"

That's what I meant by "outline"! Gosh, I'm sorry I didn't make that clear, because I totally confused you.

I write stories in my head first, unless I get so excited that I sit down at the computer and start typing away furiously. But usually, scenes are in my head for a while before they get typed up, and usually they're all over the place in terms of the total storyline. That being the case, I often jot down brief summaries (e.g., "Background") to remind myself of which scenes I've written in my head. And by typing up these summaries in their proper order, I can more easily see where I need to come up with more scenes.

So the two outlines I showed you were my story gradually expanding as I came up with more and more scenes in my head, and as I realized things like, "Oh. I don't actually have a scene where I reveal this information that the protagonist knows at the end of the novel. Maybe I'd better have him find that out at some point." Then I'd draft another scene in my head.

"Because that's how I get story ideas: as words. I get the literal actual words I will use in the text first, not last."

We are so alike! But I'll confess that, while I can draft dialogue and expository passages in my head easily, description is dead hard for me. So I often leave descriptions out till I type up the scene. And sometimes I actually have to insert more descriptions into the revision, because I got so excited doing the easy stuff that I forgot to include the descriptions. Gah.

"I don't plot a novel at all. I just type along as words come to me, and hopefully those words have some plot progression incorporated in them."

When you get to the point of reading the - *ahem* - overly lengthy file I just sent you, you'll see I do exactly the same. :) Except that I rarely type up scenes cold; usually I draft them first in my head. But once I type them up, more material comes along, or things change from the way I drafted them in my head. (I couldn't actually recreate that in the file I sent you, so I pretended that what I typed up was my very first draft, rather than being my first typed draft. And in fact, my opening scenes of a novel usually do get onto the computer quite quickly, because I'm hot to go.)

Judging from what you've just said, I think I probably do a bit more guiding of my Muse than you do. I presented it in a very binary fashion in my file - my Muse does this, I do this - but actually, I think it's more of a spectrum, with totally subconscious processes on one end of the spectrum, totally conscious processes on the other end, and a lot of sort-of-subconscious-and-sort-of-conscious processes in the middle. So I'll be simultaneously flagging down my Muse when something happens that needs to be remembered for a later scene, taking note of a developing theme, reminding myself to research a historical fact, grabbing my Muse and saying, "There! There! You need to have him make his move now!" . . . and all the while, the main part of me will simply be enjoying the show. I don't know how to describe it, except that it's like being in a movie theater, where you're fully absorbed in the movie, but part of you is also aware of the person beside you, and part of you is grabbing popcorn, and part of you is trying to calculate whether you can make it to the end of the movie without a bathroom break. (Okay, maybe that last bit just happens to me.)

"proper mystery writers doubtless are much more organized"

I really have no idea how mystery writers come up with their stories! I've just assumed they started with the end of the story, but for all I know, many of them do it the way you do.

"I need a better way to generate ideas for actions/events that will fit the parameters I know the story needs."

(*Looks at my Muse.*) "Can you help her? You're the one in charge of such matters."

I think I'm going to let you look first at what I sent you and see whether that's in any way helpful.

[lizvogel]

(*Looks at my Muse.*) "Can you help her? You're the one in charge of such matters."

I think that may be the problem: other writers' brains spit this stuff out on such a subconscious level that they just assume my trouble starts after that point. And sometimes my brain does too, but it doesn't often enough that I really need a better fall-back plan.

Off to read annotations!

[duskpeterson]

Okay, I've sent the annotations!

[lizvogel]

Got it! May take me a day or two to go through it properly, but I'm looking forward to it. Thanks!

[lizvogel]

Okay, I've gone through the annotations. Thank you for sending them; I love watching how other writers' brains work!

However, I fear I'm still stuck in the swamp. The annotations tell me what you did and often why, but not *how* you did it. (Also, they seem to be mostly about things I would define as character and setting/world-building, not plot.) Well, okay, you do say "how", in that it basically just popped into your head and you went with it. And sometimes that happens for me too! But when it doesn't, I stop dead. And *that's* what I need to fix.

[duskpeterson]

I've responded by email so that I don't have to drop spoilers here. :)